Transcript/Translation for Episode 15
This and all episodes of What’s my 20 Produced by Chuck Klein
Wendela Malman, Stockholm, Sweden
Rebecca
are you in almost four years
Wendela
no in Stockholm Yeah, well, you get a lot of snow you ride the buffalo
Rebecca
you get snow there.
Wendela
Yeah you deal with snow
Wendela
while you’re gonna dress right right with layers. But then you got to have a good bike with like the tires with the spike. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you should have a wheel. So I don’t have to like change the tire in the morning. And just change the wheel. Yeah, exactly. So in winter I have a writing question which before Okay, so I have a single speed with this breaking problem. Okay, I’m gonna have like, really thick tires on the back. I think it’s pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve used gears before as well, but they know where to work but it’s too cold and sticks. It’s a little sketchy on when it’s icy.
Rebecca
I don’t know why I didn’t that’s good to hear. Or winter. Yes. No problem. Were you making a big deal out of buffalo
Wendela
maybe we’re tougher to eat
Rebecca
so bad you can’t write. Like we can’t keep up with.
Wendela 3:12
We don’t really get that from either. It’s not like that. Like one day where there’s like there’s no calm. And there’s like kale. Like November.
Rebecca
You can actually do this every year. Yeah, I’m like,
Wendela
Come on, guys. What’s the problem?
Rebecca
You do better?
Wendela
I don’t know maybe. Sometimes. Like in the city, it’s usually easier to get around with bike anyway. But yeah, it’s really like ice and stuff. I guess bikes are worked better. But actually there was one guy who was skiing one year, like one day
Rebecca
skiing career. Incredible. That’s awesome. Yeah. We did a career for four years. But look, I
Wendela
actually had a friend who was a courier at the company that I worked for now, and he I finished my school stuff. And he was like, So what are you gonna do? And I was like, I don’t know. Really? Do you want to be a bike messenger. I was like, what’s that? Like? You’re gonna work full time. Are you gonna cycler logs? You gotta have a mentality of like, whatever happens is fine. And I was like, Okay, sure. I can try. I’ve been a messenger since then. Apparently.
Wendela
Champion Oh Europeans have been Bremen UTMC last year, and this year, I was in Budapest. And I’ve been to the Nordic championships in Copenhagen in Stockholm and Helsinki, Nordic and Nordic champions. I love it. Nice. Yeah. I love Copenhagen. It’s really nice for cycling very flat. Neisseria. cyclamens. Not very flat. Oh, no. Pretty Helio.
Wendela
Movie. That was I mean, yeah. Know, and darkness and darkness. Tell me about that.
Wendela
So cellcom is pretty close to the Arctic Circle. So we went through we have like no sunlight. So that’s pretty. I mean, it’s good to be a messenger because you get the outside of the sunlight hours. But it’s like the sun. Sunrise like it after nine. Like 230 starts to get dark again and the three it’s like, pitch black. In the afternoon. You’re like, Okay, I have like four hours. More work nice. And like complete darkness. Yeah. Yeah, but it’s like the opposite of summer so no darkness which is nice in the summer. It’s kind of cool. White Nights. Yeah.
Rebecca
Yeah.
Rebecca
I worked in Seattle and your winter concert.
Wendela
Yeah, yeah. Well, you gotta be careful. Sometimes you gotta like put your feet on the on the floor and just like go really like. Yeah. But usually they sounded pretty well and they put like salt as well on the roads and the smell
Rebecca
and I think you can appreciate they don’t understand about a winner city. We’ve done this shit. Yeah. So I went to DC. And I was there in a winter and they got a tumultuous rain. Really hard rain. are kind of like our pilots everywhere like what is wrong with these people? And they have no not nearly as much as we get an average and there’s like they gotta know. Right? And they call traffic and I’m like, it’s gonna be worse.
Wendela
Yeah. And I’m like, Okay, so just take them out when it’s like, I don’t know very early in the morning like four in the morning. Like every other state against no doubt, you know? Okay.
Rebecca
Supposedly they get to know they act like
Wendela
we’re up there in the morning. Yeah, like we hear this. No. Yeah. Oh, shovel. Yeah, living with a girl and I got up. It was coming down with Matt. And I went out there and I cleared it. Awesome. What are you doing? Still coming down?
Rebecca
You got to do this. Yeah, otherwise gonna make it work. Gonna get snowed in the
Rebecca
attitude of the clients or non messengers towards messengers. In Stockholm
Wendela
I think is pretty good. Like very popular to be like, like, environmentally friendly. So they like to like book like messenger. Like car messenger and Exactly. I think the clients think you were kind of cool, you know, they don’t really like think it’s a real job or anything. They think it’s like, alright, well, clearly you chose like, I don’t know why you didn’t do this. Like, they still have, you know, a little bit of respect for it as well. The thing is, like, I think some of them are like, I wish I could do that. So like I had the courage to do that. But it’s very like business. Like this isn’t like we’re good to go want to make money. So really bad accepted to just like, not have a plan and just to be a messenger. I think some people are a little maybe jealous or like they wish they would have done I don’t think it’s pretty good actually. And they’re always like, oh my god, I’m so bad for you sending this package and just no sorry. I’m like, Yeah, okay. You booked Mike messenger.
Rebecca
Here. Yeah,
Wendela
that was pretty funny. We usually when we meet each other, we’re like, Oh, I feel so bad for you riding your ride ready to rain to ride in the snow? Working maybe 40.
Rebecca
Okay. How big is the people?
Wendela
It’s like 1 million. Wow. Under okay, like in Stockholm, and then we like the whole region. almost 2 million. Okay. Yeah.
Rebecca
Yeah, so it’s
Rebecca
interesting to me which cities
Rebecca
the courier thing and it is it is. I remember when there were no courier wants to close my binder. You know, there’s 20 Different companies. Now that’s crazy. I know. I’m gonna Great. Yeah. Great. Yeah, I
Wendela
think we have a pretty a lot of careers. Like about like documents, like lawyers. Go into bank, like real estate companies, a lot of like documentaries. I don’t know why but they’re like, We need a sign like on paper. Like pick up come and go like panic to like the company. Get fine. Go back panic.
Rebecca
Do with DC for example. The 500 courier service is not a big city. Drivers put everything online players. Lawyer Yeah. You could get everything electronically signed. Yeah, right. Still getting better than most of the
Wendela
rocket Yeah. As much as other cities. I don’t know we don’t do that much with my company. Much like, also like, there are a lot of like, computer engineers that we can do the hard hard drive. Memory. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And also I hairdressers. Some like, I don’t know. The company, big company. They like stuff the hairdressers that we deliver. Yeah. Wow. Like hairspray. Oh, yeah. So we’re
Wendela
always trying to think of ideas very big.
Wendela
Most people don’t read cargo bikes, because we do so much envelope. Like, most people go like backpacks, because we just do like yeah, sometimes we do like clothes, maybe for like a photo shoot. Then it’s gonna be fast usually. So we don’t really do cargo we have like, there’s one convicted, they’re like five cargoes a day out to Stockholm. Or maybe more cargoes? Not much cargo. No interesting. Pretty interesting. As it says he’s like, it’s like a lot of these are all cargo documents like people saying like in the 90s we have like no cargos everyone does like pixie and we do like envelope. That is hilarious. Pretty funny. And I think maybe the big companies don’t trust like to find things digitally. I don’t know. Bank
Rebecca
Wow, it’s an everything like to live. Yeah, like lawyers. They give you like a plastic bag or like document and also like passports.
Rebecca
Oh yeah, yeah. Very, very, very copy. Yeah. But there’s just so much stuff in the States. It’s just all digital. Yeah, it’s weird. Yeah,
Wendela
you’d never pay with cash. You can pay with cash. Only card Yeah. Except everywhere I don’t know anything like digitally and like we do with envelopes. All the time. I don’t know why
Rebecca
I left Korea
Rebecca
like 20 years ago Yeah. I went the Marine Corps and I came back on check it out.
Rebecca
Every word able to change. You and then it started coming back with those bloodsuckers. Any company that some driver driving hands on packages where the driver has to pee in a bottle they can’t take the time to find oil is wrong with Bezos out he’s fucking he’s a monster. Please go to Mars. Leave us alone. You and your money.
Wendela
know I think in Sweden people like things to be with, like messenger. Because they feel like you give someone like the environment but also they like respect the job you do. And they also feel like it’s nice. They want like a local courier company they think is nice and like I think it’s also very popular to send things with messenger like stuff. I think it’s really cool.
Rebecca
I always wondered if there was some sort of value because I wish I had a problem. The customer gets really cold like we did last year. Everyone’s clear there’s no falling down. The stairs are terrible and
Rebecca
he didn’t answer the fucking door I get my rating down because that’s a bad starting point and a whole bunch of people that are so desperate.
Rebecca
I wonder if there’s value in the human aspects of putting this thing to me. And I know where to get a human being
Wendela
the universe metals coming or ticket Yeah, maybe it’s pretty good. I think we’re doing we’re doing really nice to keep actually we do have people who are not Swedish speakers. Not at my company. But it’s like a bigger company. They have a car messengers too. And we have very like high end customers like the founder his lawyer. Like the richest influence sounds like goodie bag. Online PR companies. So you know, wherever implants or lambs you know, they’re like phone numbers. And you’re like, who delivered if you like, her voice for our guy. nicknames for some of them as well. Which is pretty funny. When I got off track, of course, talking about the language. Oh yeah, but the mine company. They only hire people. Perfectly. Yeah. But then there are other companies who hire people. They don’t have as like high end customers. There’s like a middle. Like if you call a courier or something whatever company they go back messenger. They call this company messenger. But they have two people who don’t speak Swedish on English word. Just like if you want to work for like, the fancy lawyer. Yeah, they want someone to stick to it.
Rebecca
Of course. Yeah. I get it. They’re gonna pay more. Yeah. Better. Yeah. To get you to understand what
Wendela
no one’s like any extra people that just want to quickly
Rebecca
do you have anything you want to tell the world
Wendela
maybe about maybe you want to do something but you don’t believe you can do it. I think you can can still do it because I didn’t think that I could be a messenger was the only woman still the only woman out there some few other women have been working while we recommend now I’m the only one with like a lot of girls saying like, I can never do that. But like you could do just gonna believe you can you can do of course you could do it. I’m strong. enough and they do it. Like, you like you can you can do it if you want. Try as hard as you think it is. Yeah, it’s just gonna believe in yourself.
Rebecca
I mean, that speaks to so many things. There’s so many times. And there were so many times when I was talking to a woman she’s like, Oh, I can’t do that. I’m like, How do you know you can’t do it? If you tried it and when you failed to try again. But if you’re not willing to even try it, you really are not qualified to say whether or not you can or can’t do something like tell me how you wish you could but you can’t. I don’t want to hear that. You can
Wendela
do so many women are like I’m so weak. You just gotta believe in yourself. You’re weak. Yeah, and then you gotta you gotta believe it. If you say that.
Rebecca
You say it enough. That will come true. Yeah. And you say, like I said, in 2000 When I first I decided I want to be as good as the boys in the track by competition that I was not at first. But I worked at it. And I worked at it and I worked at it. I would win the women’s stuff. But it wasn’t good enough for me. Yeah, I wanted to be the best. And I just kept working at it. Okay, you suck at this figured out and Copenhagen, I can’t remember. It was around that time. Yeah. World Championships. I decided
Wendela
okay
Rebecca
I decided I wanted to beat all the boys in the track stands. And I was determined. And then mega I love you met him. He was like, let’s make it happen. What do you need from me? So I need you to keep people from walking. And when I when? I need you to tell everyone that people don’t listen to women. Like I got you
Wendela
yeah
Rebecca
yeah. As we get, you know, no hands and me and two other guys. And then we go to one foot and like, take this shit. Yes. Determined. And I did it. Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. Like if you set yourself up to fail you will fail. I beat someone else in another competition. And I watched him go down. And everyone ran to him. Because he assumed the man of course the man’s gonna wait. Yeah, of course. So you learn from you know, I knew how to set up a track stand competition. I didn’t say anything to the organizers. You know, but I learned you know, you don’t have to live with Yeah, you can come back and you can try it. You can fall on your face. You can try again. Yeah, it’s okay to do that and then and then there was a court that female guilt that we are programmed with. Where the guy’s gonna sneak when I beat them all. Yeah, because I did that in Minneapolis. Really bad. Minneapolis, North American championships, I beat all the men that was first time I decided that it wasn’t good enough female title because I’d had a female world title and people were like, so I wanted the man’s title man, I wanted the male Title I beat everybody dammit. The female title doesn’t mean anything. Give you the fucking men. But the guy beat Hi So the guy beats gracious, kind. Wonderful man. Roland from Philadelphia. He makes reload bags. Stellar human being and and it dawned on me after I did that. But he’s such a nice guy. Yeah. That was guilt. Yeah. went up to him and I was like rolling. It just dawned on me that at times like you do the thing that everyone it breaks the mold. And you run the risk of pissing everyone off. But you get on the other side. And people come up to you and say thank you for being the only woman if you ever get anything like that.
Wendela
Well, usually just like oh, you’re good. Good job. Yeah, I guess that keep it off, I guess.
Rebecca
Yeah. Don’t stop. I’m gonna keep telling you. Did you race today
Wendela 29:35
Yeah, I did. I give off. Riding around. Exactly we do but pretending actually has given me the competition. I want to be like I mean, I like to compete against myself. What it’s like big opticians and like I don’t really care but sometimes they seriously
Jason Woody Oakland, California
Rebecca
There were, I want to say 500 couriers at least. And there were places like what we thought was in far out was living in the East Bay or Bernal Heights. I lived in the mission and a squat at first. And it was before it got gentrified. It was still at that point affordable. I mean, still we’re making much money.
Jason
I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know how to do it. Yeah. Are you know, composite some folks have like, older rent control buildings and stuff and they’ve held on to. Like, other than that, like it’s almost impossible. Just because like there literally we weren’t enough deliveries to eek out a living. You know, that there’s just enough work.
Rebecca
and you’re still an independent contractor at this point.
Jason
Right. So so right, you’re talking about like working with the apps, like Uber Eats and Doro Dash and things like that.
Jason
Yeah, it’s still not enough if you’re trying to live you know.
Rebecca
Yeah, of course.
Jason
But, you know, like I said, there’s still guys out there doing it going hard. A lot of them are still riding out there.
Rebecca
Yeah, when I was riding I didn’t ask him when I had.
Jason
Oh, I don’t know.
Rebecca
I heard Howard Williams is still out there. He was 10 years in I got there.
Jason
Okay, so it wouldn’t surprise me this whole game is like, I’m turning 40 in November. And there’s a game guys older than me. So, I wouldn’t be surprised
Rebecca
Wow. How many careers you think there are I mean, maybe is
Jason
I still think maybe a good 100. Okay, um, but yeah, like I said the works kind of died down. A lot of the companies have shut down. Your old courier companies there’s still like a few like Western. They’re doing like legal stuff. So, there is some work but it’s like I said it’s not enough for everybody. So, people have had to like transition.
Rebecca
That’s sad. I mean sometimes you want to do it you knows it’s what you love to do.
Jason
Yeah.
Rebecca
I’ve been talking to several people kind of about this. And how, like a friend, a mutual friend of me and Todd. Todd Danger from Portland. He was a courier in San Francisco. He went up with a couple of people to Portland and started this company, Magpie. And he recently had to fool because same thing, no work. When I visited Portland in the 90s. There were like 50 couriers there. There’s like four now.
Jason
That is going around.
Rebecca
And if they’re riding a bike around the chances are a lot of the time their food.
Jason
Yeah. Is anyone making money doing that? Because I mean, I hear some people saying you know fine or have a hard time believing it.
Jason
There is more volume doing food. The money is not as good. Yeah, especially with some of the things that after going through, they’ve been cutting driver rates.
Rebecca
Oh they have? Right with the algorithms like messing around with the algorithms.
Jason
Yeah. And then like, you know, California we’ve had this whole thing where we been trying to like reclassify workers as independent contractors. Right, but that fell through. It’s been a struggle. So yeah, like dependent on where you are it’s rough. New York luckily just passed some good laws where they were trying to get like almost $20 an hour.
Rebecca
Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s minimum wage in New York.
Jason
But it’s way better than what the rates were.
Rebecca
Of course.
Jason
And I mean, we I was trying to organize guys before I left in 2019. But you know, there’s been a couple groups los deliverados.
Rebecca
The food guys
Jason
Yea. They’ve been you know, organizing people.
Rebecca
So I want to talk to the you know, anybody in that group?
Jason
I’m not not
Rebecca
Because I’ve reached out to them. I don’t speak Spanish so I used to google translate.
Jason
But yeah, like I was I was really impressed because like I said, we were trying to like start some of that work like almost four or five years ago. In like 2018 and like to see it go from like that to they actually had City Council pass regulations where, if you’re picking up from a restaurant, the restaurant has to let you use the bathroom.
Rebecca
Wow that’s great.
Jason
Or that oh, you can’t? Because that’s always been a problem, right?
Rebecca
That has always.
Jason
Oh, no, you’re not customer you can use the bathroom. Right? So, they got rid of that. Yeah, they know they instituted a minimum wage almost 20 I think it’s like 18.50 to like 19 or something like that.
Rebecca
Good for them.
Jason
It shows the power of being able to organize.
Rebecca
Yeah. It’s a collective.
Jason
And I would love to see other cities be able to get similar stuff done. Because I think, you know, especially through the industry, everybody can benefit from this. So yeah, Want to be a part of it?
Rebecca
Well, I guess the argument for coming from the business side is, well, if I have to pay you 20 bucks an hour, then I’m like, get rid of these three other guys.
Jason
Well, that’s the other thing. So even though New York passed it, and now you’ve got DoorDash and they are suing the city of New York.
Rebecca
Of course they are. Because they’re a bunch of cheap bastards or a bunch of computer warriors that make tons of money don’t understand what suffering means.
Jason
They don’t understand, they just don’t give a shit.
Rebecca
They’re not outside and cold.
Jason
They don’t care at all.
Rebecca
Yeah, yeah, I would like you know, the Jeff Bezos. I love picking on him. I think he’s just evil. You’re kinder than I am. I wish he’d blast off to Mars and never come back.
Jason
I mean I was hoping they would take a trip together.
Rebecca
So the thing is, like, here we have this community, right. I mean, this has been the case since I remember when I started coming in around the 90s, early 90s. The old heads were talking about the teamsters trying to unionize and they actually tried it several cities and failed.
Jason
I heard
Rebecca
Because they don’t understand the industry at all. And so, the argument on the business side is why would I, I have all this work to do. John can only do so many a day. I can’t have John everywhere every part of the city I have to have a certain number of guys but I can’t pay everybody all this money because the customers won’t pay. They don’t value it enough. It’s a loss leader. Like as a loss leader
Jason
You know it’s interesting because I actually found messenger work through activism. I went to I’m from New York, originally, to school down in Atlanta. Okay. It was just so cheap. Like to stay there for like, forever. I didn’t come back to New York so 2011 for Occupy Wall Street. So, it was just really crazy like I’ve met I was part of Occupy Atlanta down there and then like a guy out there was like, Yo, I’m gonna drive up north and go visit Occupy Wall Street you wanna hop in the car and it was like my high school reunion that weekend ten years. Thanksgiving 2011.
Rebecca
That worked out.
Jason
So, I came up and then I was like, an, this is so cool I’m not going back to Atlanta. And I ended up like, I just had like a duffel bag. Two pairs of jeans in the middle of winter in New York, right? And like I get there and I’m like, holy shit. There is the revolution it’s happening. Yeah, I’m staying. I was sleeping at a church with like, 80 people. And then I was like, man, let’s start a long-term solution. So, like, eventually 2012 I got a bike and was like, there’s a thing here. It was funny, one of the first guys I met at Occupy Wall Street. This guy was Stefan Geras. He’s he was a bike messenger. He just passed away.
Rebecca
Oh, I know. Him. He died?
Jason
Yeah he just passed away. Like Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Rebecca
He was in Minneapolis. Yeah. Back in the day.
Jason
Yea he was in Minneapolis doing this thing. Yes. But yeah. He had introduced me to Kevin. I told him that, you know, I told Stefano. I was like, Yo, I got this bike. I think I want do delivery, he’s like I know this guy. And he didn’t say like, it’s Squid. He’s like I just know a guy. I go and I’m like with Squid he’s at Astor Liquors because he’s running the contract for them. Right. And it’s like, yeah, meet me at this spot-on time. Whatever. I go there. And he’s like, oh, you got a Cannondale. Alright, cool you know, he put me on all the shipments. Back then right. So, I was like oh who, I was doing champion courier. Uber had started a whole delivery Uber rush thing. I’m working at like three places at the same time. Right and but that was how you could get the money in. Like it was It was that connection from the activism into the bike messenger culture and industry that really had me focused on like, man, we’re doing all this they’re all these guys doing this, and we are being screwed over by the companies. What led me to try to start organizing. And like even back then, and we’re like, man, people try to do the right thing and shit fuck that. The other problem is everybody works for somebody different. Yeah, for the restaurant directly. They work for Door Dash. So, it’s like, it’s hard. It’s not like we all work for Amazon.
Rebecca
It’s not like we have a body representing us, right.
Jason
And that was part of our challenge is trying.
Rebecca
There needs to be somebody kind of like a hub.
Jason
Exactly. And like recent more recently that created like, unless,
Rebecca
uh huh. Yeah, there wasn’t a NYBMA. That we created. That’s it’s very fascinating that they they rebranded it’s just one letter but no.
Jason
Yea, I think it’s dope because that’s what we need.
Rebecca
Yeah.
Jason
This is how we bring that hub together.
Rebecca
There’s something that’s a little more sustainable. You get a lot of energy out of these championships and some cities got launched into their activism, you know, like San Francisco and I’m thinking in particular, you know, they went from, you know, not having even office for the championships, no money for the championships. Everyone hated us. To the darlings of the city. And with that comes confidence. And, you know, you feel galvanized as a community because look what we just did. And then it got a lot mouthier. Because when I first got there, everyone’s like, just chill dude. I’m like, we’re getting fucked. Because I’m on the East Coast. And shit isn’t that great out there. But it was a hell of a lot better than San Francisco. Yeah. And I’m like, why are you why do you take this shit? When I left 96 after the championships, they were getting mouthy.
Jason
Yeah, and that’s the thing. It’s funny because like, you know, we go through phases of that but like, I was trying to get guys organized in New York when even when we were doing Uber. Uber was kind of like jacking them but there was a time. It was really cool when it started. Yeah, they have a $20 bonus per delivery. Right and like, a lot I made like $1,500 a week. Wow. Took a fucking vacation 10 days in the Caribbean.
Rebecca
Well, they get you on that hook.
Jason
Well, that was the thing. I had gone out on
Rebecca
And then you’re sharecropping on wheels.
Jason
I went on a cruise after Thanksgiving on my birthday. And then I get off the boat turned my phone back on. And I had like all these messages from Uber. Like, oh, the $20 bonus is now 15 Now it’s 10 now. Because while I was gone, guys decided to go to the Uber office and protest because they weren’t getting tips. So, people would pay tips on the receipt, but we weren’t getting the tips. Right? So, guys were protesting at the Uber office and you guys not to get anything, and they just started like dropping the rates. By time I came back from vacation. Yeah, I was like, oh man.
Rebecca
No, honestly.
Jason
That’s really what it was.
Rebecca
If there was a rolling, targeted one punch after the other we’re together collectively could take down any one of these and make an example to the others. Okay, you want to fuck with us? Watch what happens. It’s been done before. I mean, it was kind of accidental, but it did happen,
Jason
That’s when Deliverados were trying to do.
Rebecca
I’m not talking about New York City.
Jason
Oh, you’re talking about everyone.
Rebecca
I’m talking about the globe. Oh, well, that’s the other thing like about what’s going on with delivery. Right. Yeah. And like, yeah, you’re right. You’re absolutely right. I mean, basically, here’s how I would run it in my wildest dreams. Now you’re an activist. So I know you can appreciate so there’s an advocacy organization. Everybody is at least subscribing. So getting the newsletter, you know, putting in complaints we want to hear from you. What’s happening in your city. How are you getting fucked? I want to know all about it. And you know if it’s like particularly juicy story or there’s a lot of some time go out, like someone in that city goes out and writes a piece on it. You know, I’m saying it’s a we’ve got more and more knowledge, and we can piece together where the weak spots are. Right? So we decide okay, who we’re going to hit because they all bad. They’re, they’re all bad. So what do we start with? Can we start with a whale? Or do we start with the minnows? I would start with the whale. Yeah, I would go because for a long time. It’s a David and Goliath thing Americans love that. They love watching a little guy fight for his stand up for himself. They start rooting for him. I think do. Americans are lazy and they forget? Almost immediately. Hey yeah.
Rebecca
Then we decide going after mover because of the biggest do it with the time zones. So every time it turns to nine o’clock and other city goes dark. Oh, and nobody works. Yeah. See, that’d be
Jason
great. And let’s go around the globe. So it demands and be like you need to act right
Rebecca
So Uber is a thing where it doesn’t just go to by trade as it were as cars to Yeah, so like in order to do that you got to get the bikes and the car guys Yeah, because otherwise the bike guys stop thinking that we all the bikers, in order just gonna go to the car guys.
Jason
No I hear you. But they are also suffering. They are also different contractors like it’s not like we all meet somewhere, right? Yeah, you have to like reach out to I.
Rebecca
Here’s what I say. It’s almost a PR I did the PR three World Championships and I did a good job. I know how to chum in the water. Okay, so here’s what you what you do. We put it out to everyone what we’re about to do anything you can put in a picture the cuneus liberal messengers, the ones that look the least powerful, scrawny, skinny, hippie, vegans, you know, white guy with dreadlocks decades, so they don’t think because look at someone like that. You’re like it’s not strong. But that’s the punch. So they’re like these guys and say we’re gonna go up against us when we want these. These are our demands but put it out in public. Not just to whoever the schools are Uber. Yeah. Oh press release, press packet, pictures, video. infographics that you can click on it takes you right. So you have this package, you send it out to Uber first do like, hey, you know, you could you like just basically fill our demands, or we’re gonna go ahead and do this thing. Like we like. Good, good. We’re gonna learn how that’s worked out for the guys that UPS right. Go on strike and they got to do eah. And they said, Well, we they’ll say the same thing. We’ll just use the cars and the cars they’re, they’re gonna catch wind because they work for Uber. And they’re gonna be damn it and have a little portal for the car drivers. Yeah. If you’re a car driver, you want to join us. And then you click on that and it breaks down how much you pay for your car insurance gas. deadheading?
Jason
single driver I’ve talked to all says the same thing. Yeah, like I do it for the money but I’m only making a little bit of money to pay for it yeah,
Jason
eah. I think that they would blocked us thinking like a wow, because there are some definitely would and I’m concerned about the ones who are not really engaged.
Rebecca
Yeah, that literally it’s a real big problem we have especially in America. Oh yeah. are like I just got to pay my bills. Here with like, that’s more work for me if then.
Rebecca
Well, we got to figure that that’s that’s a perennial problem. That’s why the unionization never works. Right. Every single wave unionization, there’s always these people that are like, I don’t have this choice. So maybe it’s a strike fund. Yeah.
Jason
Could also be a great yeah, I don’t know. I think there’s definitely ways to get creative with X solutions with it. But you know, it’s really about having this conversation with the stakeholders. Yeah, with the messengers. Yeah, drivers
Rebecca
are the messengers that have left messenger that still love the job. Enjoy the rest of your trip
Rebecca
Oh, oh, cats. So I interviewed this dude. I mean, it’s not the same, but you don’t know who’s out there. It’s what I’m saying. They still have the love. But they’re out there doing out of stuff. My producer, former messenger was willing to do this, you know, producing for free, and he’s a fucking pro. He’s the real deal. And I’m like, Wow, no, I’m paying you because I don’t want you to go away. You deserve it. Don’t pay him that much. I wish I could pay more. But I’m just saying there’s people like that. Out in the world. So let’s say you know, we actually
Rebecca
get our shit together have something that actually might work. And one of these old cats comes along it’s like, do not fucking rich now. What do you need? Dude I am a VP at CBS News. But he fucking told. Anthony Bourdain was a bike messenger. Jennifer Aniston was a bike messenger. You know what I’m saying? There. You could shine a little bit on them. Say oh, we don’t have any other
Rebecca
Atlanta that actually is its size and then occurred collective. But yeah
Jason
sure they miss a bike messenger. The you know, these people. If we pluck the cords that make their hearts home. They might be inspired with I mean shit. When there’s something that happens. It was a terrible thing that happened somebody and Tyler Perry was just like buying them. Let me solve your problem for you. And,
Jason
yeah, it’s always good when you get that support behind the thing. So we figure
Rebecca
out what the problems are, what the directions are, you know, if we need a strike fund, you know, whatever it is. So that’s my dream. Go around the world. Shit out over. scare him off. Joe Biden loves riding a bike. You know who gave him a bike for his inauguration Blinky Philadelphia? Yeah.
Rebecca
Yeah, like you. already put it out there.
Rebecca
But you know what I’m saying. We have allies we haven’t even tapped into and I think a lot of careers so demoralized they wouldn’t think to ask
Rebecca
Yeah, like even like herding cats. Were so many of us are so independence withdrawn as to the first place or like that was another conversation. Yeah, New York is like well, we could get city council to make us official because at one point we were talking about, like, doing something like they do with TLC, where like if you were talking about but since the doing that for bikers. Yeah. Because you’re gonna be doing delivery. Yeah.
Rebecca
Whatever this battery of tests or whatever,
Rebecca
I’ll remind me just like even just a simple registration. Okay, and like, it’s gotta be on our term for that was I don’t want to do that because I like smoking while I want right? Yeah. Oh, guys, just like, oh, well, that’s gonna make rules. We don’t want rules. That’s what we do. So yeah, yeah, there was overcoming that hurdle.
Rebecca
It’s good to know, you know, what you’re facing what you’re up against. I think nobody’s really been honest with themselves when they tried to organize like, they’ll just come along. We’re exporting route. We’re family. And they’re just they’re kind of just hoping. Yeah, and hope it’s not
Jason
your hope, but we also got to put the work in. Like there’s a lot of different work that needs to get done. I mean, it’s not as quickly as you want
Rebecca
to make this rough. shift of gears, but used to be feel at the championships, at least from second championships in London. I want to say they did something in the first one to you honor fallen messengers. And if it seems like I can’t even remember the last time that was done at a championships, like a serious. In fact, when I was in Philly, a guy who got killed a couple months before the championships, and we did the whole ride and stuff, but I was listening to an organizer. He’s like, Yeah, they didn’t want to include this in the actual program. Why? Why? It’s part of our life, you know? So I bring that up, because we have a hard time as community, just keeping our own traditions together and honoring each other and remembering shit. I mean, how long has it taken for non binary people to get some respect? A little too long. Yeah. And yesterday at the track stand I’m very interested because I used to win that all the time. I heard Yeah, yeah. So I’m there and I’m watching because I fell because I’m done. I’m a has been an officially has been and I used to do it. That’s good enough. There’s always a time to pass the torch. You know, I can let it go. Let it go. And I was watching this other chick because I wanted to see who was the last chick up because that’s gonna congratulate her. She’s last one up. Nobody made any deal out of it all. They didn’t notice. They ran away from her. And I was like you you want. Oh, I did? Yeah. I mean, she she’s trying to compete. She’s not trying. It’s not her job. It’s the people that are running competitions their job. Right. So 30 fucking years we still haven’t even got that right. This championships. I wanted to set a baseline for my podcast I talked about the guys had the original idea. Okay, why would that story get lost? Yeah, so this this person that was killed this weekend last night? Yeah. You’re fine. Can you tell me about Patti?
Jason
Yeah. From Patty’s from San Jose. San Jose fix the new weather. But yeah, I mean, I met Maddie a couple years ago. Like one of the things that conditioner it’s
Jason
they’ve been great. Nonbinary always bring great energy, smiles and loves to the variety.
Jason
Okay, good. Yeah. You know, he’s always been great. Always been doing like crazy stuff. Like, I just I just started video by cutting and climbing. But yeah, it’s it’s really unfortunate that we were hanging out last night. And I split up on the way home, staying at the same place. We are staying here, there and everywhere. I think my understanding is at the wrong chain
Jason
which spilled a tragic with otherwise when the awesome yeah. Everybody’s been talking about the great vibe. Yeah. I was gonna always I gotta finish that but yeah, like, I just think it’s it’s one of those unfortunate things that we we know can happen. Yeah, like, hope never does. Yeah. Because that’s unfortunately like what we do on bikes. Yeah
Jason
they took the wrong
Jason
turn. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, even even from what I understand, this is a thing that doesn’t happen in Japan. Where there’s a freeway down for about eight hours, really? Oh, wow. Yeah. So it’s been a really big deal. For here,
Rebecca
I feel, I feel I mean, having been an organizer, this is an absolute nightmare.
Jason
Totally. I mean, I’ve heard is probably unprecedented event for years and WC because, as far
Rebecca
as I know, I’ve never heard of a death FCM right. I’ve heard of them at alleycats
Jason
right. And this was not even like a race or anything. Just like Yeah, just one of those unfortunate incidents like I feel like you know, if you’ve been in the industry a while I’ve definitely lost. I mean, it’s something that we all know can happen. Yeah, but we do what we can. Unfortunately it really sucks because it’s been awesome in my head is really going to be missed. Some folks back home got in touch with their family. So they’re probably going to be headed out. To make arrangements of course, so yeah,
Rebecca
just really, it’s just so, so hard. You’re dealing with a family.
Rebecca
It’s gonna be a real hit for not only your family, but like the whole like. Yeah, like I mean, I don’t know anybody doesn’t like that.
Jason
Yes. They were just one of the
Jason
everybody
Rebecca
it’s unfortunate. We hate losing friends. And you know, it’s also what drives us it makes us safer. So, yeah, I mean, I hate that it comes to that, but like I really, I hope we can take more steps to make events safer. Like it happened after all of these scheduled events. I’m not I’m not trying to blame. Yokohama has been the most amazingly organized a lot of us you see ya guys here has been doing a great job but like this was something separate and like, you know, it’s something you can’t really plan for. No but you know, I always try to encourage people like not be by themselves, especially places like this when you’re out of town don’t exactly know where everything is. Yeah,
Rebecca
you know, be careful. Take your time don’t just be winging into shit right?
Jason
Right with a buddy. You know, we say I know we say it all the time. But like, I’m really I mean it when I say even if I’m writing about Atlanta traffic.
Rebecca
There’s a way to do it. Don’t do it safely. Right. There’s a way to do it. And
Jason
yeah, we’re probably gonna do something back in California. It’s kind of settled down. Yeah. So I’ll be headed back. Obviously supposed to better
Rebecca
yeah. Okay. All right. I will share for sure. Well, I won’t keep you there. Things to do. Is there anything you’d like?
Jason
Um, you know, I wish the world would just take bikes a little more seriously. Like, I think people always think of like bikes and cyclists especially drivers find them annoying. Yeah, but you know, I think bison is one of the healthiest things you can do for the planet. Oh, yeah. Not only healthy for you. zero emissions. Yeah. It’s less, literally less space on the road. Right? It’s better for the environment. And like, I’ve been doing a lot of climate justice work in California. Uh huh. And like we spend a lot of our work around bicycles. That’s cool. So we’ve had I mean, we do stuff out there like East Bay bike party where we get regular people I might have 1000 people on a Friday night. Oh, wow. Streets, bikes. Music. I got a big 30 pound speaker I’ll be bringing in like we have a good time. That’s cool. Really. If you don’t have a bicycle, just like ride to the store. Yeah, I’d love to see more people transitioning away
Rebecca
from it makes them more sympathetic to cyclists.
Rebecca
Because once you like, once you’re on a bike and the car drives too close to you, you’re not close to a bike. Right? And like I really I really just want people to be a little more aware, especially back in America, for the most part like drivers have been really great here. Oh, yeah. Yeah, like I’ve been really impressed like riding around. Yokohama. I’m gonna be going to Tokyo tonight. And I plan to do some writing in Tokyo but like I’ve been really impressed with the orderly flow of traffic. Yeah.
Jason
Being here, because everyone else is still respectful of each other in traffic. I am more respectful, right? It actually were like you go into a park and there’s no trash anywhere. You feel like a jerk for putting trash on the ground. You know?
Rebecca
Oh, yeah, I’ll hold the bottle for 20 minutes.
Jason
But like in America, everyone. You don’t have to wait two minutes before you see someone breaking a law in a car.
Jason
Oh, yeah. Especially open like they don’t respect the laws of physics. So seriously, like I’ve seen guys run the light and the median traffic and it’s just like, that’s scary. And I’m on a budget. So like,
Jason
like, oh my god, if I was hitting the line of fire, I wouldn’t be done. And you got these cars and they’re super powerful and everyone feels like they got over the course.
Jason
Over instruction doing donuts and
Jason
Oh, right. Yes. It is almost I remember the first time I ever saw that.
Jason
And yeah, it’s like man, like, we have some really unsafe drivers for themselves and others. So it does take a level of defensive cycling. Sure. Really, you know, be safe, but
Jason
I have a hard time respecting someone in a car. This woman pulled up alongside me. She’s like, you didn’t stand up at that steps. And I said you didn’t either. Right. So let me get on my face. And we went through that shit. I watched you
Jason
on with the California and I understand now because no one actually stops. And then it’s just like, Yay, my road to the intersection and people say
Rebecca
How dare you like
Jason
them? I feel like a drink. No cars coming in the crosswalk is standing there and they’re looking at me. Oh,
Jason
yeah. Oh, I don’t do that in New York, do I get the shit hell no. People drive it on the sidewalk. You know you’re not on the moral high ground here. Okay. Oh, by the way, your big ass truck is killing little children all over the world. That yeah, yeah. Why not? Doing his interviews he’s he’s finishing up the cover.
Jason
Don’t worry about it. It’s cool. National jerseys.
Jason
It’s fine. No, no, I know. You get it because you’re from Jersey. It’s fine. These little interludes are fine. It’s our world. You know, that’s how we do it.
Jason
Ya know, like if there’s anything I definitely want people to know. Tip your delivery driver. Out here or in delivery. Please tip your guy because we do not get paid enough. Yeah. You could have got that yourself. Yeah, because you didn’t make sure that guy something.
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